What It Takes To Be A Rockstar
Host and musician Melissa Lucciola talks with signed and DIY musicians from around the world about their lives behind the scenes. From maxing out credit cards, sleeping on floors, sharing beds and getting paid $250 to play Madison Square Garden, you will hear the in's and out's of life on and off the road and the real struggles of the modern day musician.
What It Takes To Be A Rockstar
Episode 6 - PT. 2 - Dead Tooth - On chasing the carrot
This week is Part 2 with Zach Ellis from Dead Tooth. During this conversation we talk about finances, keeping relationships going through tour, staying healthy and the sacrifices he has made to do music.
You can watch this episode on Youtube on our channel - https://youtu.be/ibPX5Twjpfo
Check out Dead Tooth here: https://deadtoothbk.bandcamp.com/
Check out the European Tea Eater tour dates here (I will be on bass!): https://www.teaeater.com/tourdates
Edited, recorded, mixed and produced by Melissa Lucciola.
This episode is sponsored by SORRY Cables - rad and colorful quality instrument and microphone cables handmade in LA.
Intro song is called "I'm Starting a Podcast" by Tea Eater
Other music is by Pretty World
Hello, hello, everyone.
Welcome back to another episode of What It Takes To Be A Rockstar.
I'm your host, Mel, and today I am interviewing the Zach Ellis of the band Dead Tooth.
Hello, friends.
Welcome back to another episode of What It Takes To Be A Rockstar.
Welcome back.
This is part two with Dead Tooth.
If you're watching, you might notice that I'm in my car, and it's because I'm doing approximately one million things before I leave in approximately three hours to leave for Brooklyn to go on tour with Tea Eater to Europe.
So I'll link the dates in the show description so you can see where we're going, and maybe you can come out if you're in those areas.
Anyway, this week is part two with Zach from Dead Tooth, and we really get deep into it this week.
We talk about finances as a musician.
We talk about sacrifices.
We talk about being a musician and keeping relationships going.
We talk about being a musician and keeping your health up and running.
And anyway, we really get into it, and I really, really enjoyed the conversation.
I'm really grateful for Zach taking the time to talk about all those things with me, because I think it's pretty fascinating.
And anyway, yeah, I hope you enjoy, and I got a new phone.
I got a new phone.
If you were listening last week, you know I had no room, and now I have room, and I'm recording this video on my phone.
So yay to improve technologies and enjoy the conversation.
So because you're saving money on the van and not having to rent something, are you guys, when you go out on tour, are you breaking even?
Are you making money?
Are you losing money?
Where are you at with that?
Do you know?
It kinda depends on the tour.
It's like some tours, we make a little money because we did a base from a death support tour and the guarantee wasn't huge, but we figured out how to budget our whole system.
At the time, Gino, the shitty thing about Gino, there's a lot of shitty things about Gino.
I hate you, Gino.
No, I'm just kidding.
I love Gino.
He's the best.
You heard it first.
He just can't tour and I'm pissed at him because I love him and I want him to come on tour this whole time.
But an amazing thing about Gino is his mom works for like Courtyard Marriott.
So when we were touring with Gino, she gets like discounted rooms all the time.
So we're like saving a lot of money on hotels and we were staying in hotels.
But now that we don't have that when we tour because he can't really tour with his job, he was able to come on like he took a sabbatical to go on the Bass Joint Death Tour from his job so he could actually do it.
But now we basically just try to crash with people to save money.
That's pretty much the only way we could come out and be like, oh, we made some money.
If it's a DIY tour, depending on how it's kind of like hit or miss.
Sometimes like the guarantees, you're like, okay, we can count on that so we can budget it in.
And the DIY ones were like, oh, we like can't count on anything because these are door deals.
We got to like budget super friendly.
Like we got trash everywhere.
And some of those we'll do like better on because, you know, you get like a little higher.
Like you made like $4.50 one night for some reason, you know, like was like if you would have done the guarantee, it would have been like you might have been playing a bigger audience, but you get like the same $2.50 every night or something, whatever the support slot is.
I know.
And I feel like people need to hear that.
Like $2.50 is a very common number.
Like we're playing some pretty big support slots sometimes because the main band, their team is basically trying to cut costs as much as possible because they also have like crazy expenses.
And they know that any band would kill to be on that tour and do it for like $2.50.
But like it's basically like $0 in terms of like what it costs to get to the show, to you know even if you want to eat that day or forget like...
Yeah, support five adult human beings.
Yeah, and drive eight hours and sleep and eat.
Yeah, and like, and yeah, it's just, and if you were to be like, we want to stay in hotels or whatever, like there you go.
That's like one and a half hotel rooms, you know?
Right, yeah.
It's like negative money, but you know it's the investment that you're making to be on those shows.
But I feel like people don't always know that sometimes those DIY shows, you come out with more money than, you know, if you're playing a huge crowd, unless I was just talking to Seth from Ghost Funk about this, like merch is so important.
Merch is the thing.
Yeah, that's where the job, like that's where, like, we are pretty, like, at least me, I'm like every show, like either, it's pretty much usually me or James will like, one of us will pack up the other one's stuff and somebody just runs to the merch table and we're just there until the line dies.
That's kind of like, and that's the only way we're like able to be like, like, like I think on the base drum tour, which was three weeks with guarantees, 250, we ended up like coming out.
I think we came out on top like a bit with all the merch and stuff.
We were like, like, like everybody made a little money.
Like, I was like, let's, we all worked really hard for this.
Let's, you know, but that's, it's a lot of work.
You know, you just got to like every night, you got to be at that merch table.
And you're basically a good t-shirt salesman that plays 45 minutes.
You play on stage for 30 minutes a lot of the times, you know, and then you're just like standing there pedaling shirts.
Yeah.
And then driving all day.
Let me drive 10 hours to play for 30 minutes and then sell these t-shirts.
And sleep on somebody's floor.
Yeah.
And I mean, like, how do you guys like, because I'm assuming you weren't able to pay everybody, like what they would make if they stayed home and worked, right?
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like everyone, I'm sure they're taking their own, like personal loss on the tour.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's basically everybody's got to be down and just be like, well, I'd rather lose some money this month and play music every night.
And that's just kind of, you know, it's like a decision.
And hopefully, eventually, that's not the case.
Hopefully, we're making more money eventually one day.
Like, you know, hopefully we're headlining sometime, and we have a band opening for us, and we're making enough where it's not a loss to be like, okay, I'm taking, you know, there's a lot of groundwork you got to do to get there, though.
You got to like go out and build the audience.
You know, like we're like, we're going to go out with them.
I'll just say we're going to do a tour with a friends band who actually you interviewed.
Yeah, it's awesome.
Yeah, but we're doing like a lot of the places we've been to already.
So it's like kind of like, like we've been back to like a few, like we played a like when we went with the bass drum, we played the Beachland Ballroom in Cleveland.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so they have a smaller venue attached to it called the Tavern.
And so when we went back, there was like a whole shitload of people there with like dead tooth shirts on, like being like, this is sick.
I was, we've been waiting for you guys to come back, you know?
So you just kind of like get to keep going until like there's like a, there's like a, they want us to come back, you know?
And then that's kind of where we're at.
We're just like, keep hitting the same spots, keep doing the thing.
Yeah.
No, it's huge.
And it's like, you just got to keep going back and you're in this, like the reason I really want to talk to you too is because you're in this spot where you're not, you're not making enough money to live off of it yet, but you have to like come home and kind of make up for that.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like this is like where we're at is like the trickiest part to navigate of like doing this.
Because when you're like not making any money or whatever, it's like, it's kind of like, the demand's pretty low.
Like you decide when you're going to do it, like, oh, we're going to do like a weekender here or there, you know?
But it's like, when you get to a point, like, where we're getting offers and stuff, it's like, you kind of have to take them, but they're also not like that much.
So it's like, it's like, there are opportunities that don't pay that well.
And you got to, but you are like, you got to just do them.
But in order to do that, you got to just like, sacrifice.
And we all have lucky, luckily we all have jobs that are pretty flexible.
Aside from me, I'm technically unemployed right now, but I work for a friend's company upstate that comes down to the city and does these like, wedding game jobs and like, that's called Upstate Jamboree.
They made these games.
I was telling you about it last time we hung out, I think.
But I have like, sporadic work in between tours.
I just scored a film, like just kind of like whatever kind of work I can get that can allow me to like, have the time to go out.
And everybody's luckily in like a boat, like Taylor's working at that Cava bar that I used to work at.
And it's pretty flexible.
Like the staff's like, oh, if you need to go away for a couple of weeks, like we'll just all pick up more shifts, you know?
That's great.
That's like, that's a huge part of the musician life that I think makes it really tricky is just to find that those bosses who are, or either you find, you have to make your own work enough so that you can survive through the times when you're not on tour or you need to have a boss who's like super supportive.
And those people are so awesome.
And it's like, it's unbelievable to me.
Like I have this one job where, you know, for a while I'll email my boss.
So I'll be like, I'm going to be gone, like all of August, all of October, half of November.
And then she was like, okay, sounds good.
It's not like, what, are you crazy?
Like, all right, thank you.
Yeah.
So like every time I'm like, you can totally fire me.
I totally get it.
Like if you want to fire me, like that's all good.
And then she's like, no, we're working.
What's that job?
Oh, it's cleaning.
I clean this office building like alone, like a couple of times a week.
Nice.
Yeah.
And she just must like you a lot.
Like that's like the thing.
You got to just like make good relationships with people where they're like, I trust you and I like you.
And like, it'd be, it's better to have you when I get you than not at all, you know?
Yeah, that's basically what she said.
The whole dance of being a musician is like getting people like value you enough where they're like, when I'm here, I'm great, but I'll be gone a lot.
Yeah.
That's like same with like, you know, relationships too, like the more your tours pick up, and then you're like, you're away.
And then you're just like with, you know, luckily, my boyfriend, he gets it because he's a musician too.
But that's a whole other part to navigate.
So I go, all right, I'm going to be gone for three months.
And the next four months is like, love you.
See you later.
Yeah.
I'm a great fall.
I feel like being on the touring side of that is always like, like I was actually just talking to Nola about this the other day, because we're like boyfriend and girlfriend now.
We're like trying to like figure out how like that's going to like, and I'm like, yeah.
It's a great match.
Everybody's listening.
It's like a perfect match.
Thanks.
Thanks.
But yeah, it's just like, oh, I'm going to be, I think I'm going to be like, like she does dance stuff, she'll do like residencies and stuff, you know, and it's just like, but it's not like nearly as much as like, you know, we're going to be gone for like a month touring in November and then like a week before that in September, you know, who knows if something else come up, you know?
And it's just like, I just think it's like, for the person on tour, like it like you're constantly like uncomfortable in a weird place.
You're like, you're always going somewhere new, like it sucks in a lot of ways, but you're not just like sitting around, like you're not like in the same place without the person that you like spend a lot of time with when you're like, you're constantly distracted, at least, you know?
Whereas like when you're like home, I feel like it's like a little harder to be like, I'm just like sitting here, you know, like we're normally we'd be like hanging out or going, you know, going to a show together or something.
But it is, you know, absence makes the heart grow fonder.
Yeah, yep.
That's the saying.
Yeah.
Well, forgetful, that's what they say.
But more forgetful.
Mostly fonder, though, I think.
I think it's nice.
It is good for relationships to to have that space sometimes because it kind of makes it fun.
Like, oh, I'm not going to see you for a whole month, you know, and then you get all sad and then like you see each other again.
You're like, yay.
Yeah, totally.
Can add some excitement to the relationship adds value, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Supply.
Supply into me.
It's nice to think about relationships in the form of a capitalist.
That's horrible.
Yeah.
No, it's I wanted to ask you just a couple more questions.
This has been so fun.
Thank you for.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Been a blast.
Yeah.
You're giving everybody the secrets.
I guess.
Yeah.
I just I just want people to hear like, I don't know, these are the conversations I like to have with other musicians.
You know, I just because the more shows, you know, we've all been, everyone I talked to, we've all been fighting to be a musician in this world for 15 years, you know, since.
Like basically.
And then you, it feels sometimes like the closer you get to maybe that, the harder it gets or the weirder it gets.
Right.
Just all this stuff to like deal with.
And, you know, there's like people that are making and so many emails and like zoom calls and like teams.
And it's like every decision, like at least with Goose Stop, there's like a lot of people helping make decisions now.
And it's just like, I don't know, it's just for me, there's like, there's a big difference between what I thought I was trying to get into when I was like a kid, you know, when I was 18 and like what it actually is.
And I just want to hear from other musicians, like what their experience is too, because I mean, in so many ways, we get to do like the coolest stuff in the world, like all these awesome shows and opportunities that we get.
And then on the flip side, there's like, we sacrificed so much to do that stuff, you know, and like you were saying with your friend, you're like, I'm kind of jealous, he like has money in like a studio.
And that's like what we all actually really just want is like money in a studio to just play.
Yeah.
And, you know, we were sleeping on floors, you know, we're still like even when you you're opening this huge show for people, you know, and when you're younger, you're like, wow, they're really doing it.
They're like living the dream, you know, and then you get there and you're like, can we crash on your floor?
And it's like 20 years later that you're still asking your friend, can it crash on your floor?
And you're playing such bigger shows and you're still crashing on their floor.
And like something isn't adding up here, you know?
Yeah, the whole the whole industry is broken, you know, and like the longer and longer we all do it, we're like, there's been like this carrot dangling in front of us for years.
And it just seems like it's getting harder and harder to chase.
I tasted it, my tooth touched it.
I looked at the carrot once and it was and then it was like nothing changed in my life.
And you know, everyone's like, I don't know.
It's like I want to change anything.
I don't regret running through this whole life of doing this because like, you know, I've tasted the other carrot of like a regular corporate job.
I did that when I was younger for a couple of years and I was like so sad and depressed.
Yeah, you're happy now.
You do like living a cool lifestyle.
You're like living your dream lifestyle essentially, but like you're saying, it doesn't come at the expense of like, you're not just hanging around jamming all day.
Like that's like the least thing that I do.
I know that and that's like the thing that it's like, I want to be a musician so I could play music.
And then I'm looking at my friends who were like, aren't musicians in the daytime and they're playing more music than me, you know, because I'm like, yeah.
That's like my buddy, he's like, I'm like, you play more than I do.
Like I'm just like, I'm basically just like on my phone answering people most of it.
That's like what most of my day is like coordinating between people, answering people, answering emails and like figuring out plans of like, when's going to, what's going to come out when coordinating the album are like, it's all like, it's all just like a big, you know, who's going to be the drummer at this show that Gino can't do.
That's like, it's like, the whole thing is just like a big business that you have to run.
Yeah.
That you don't really get paid for.
So then on top of that, you got to.
Coming up with this joke in my head, like, because it's not possible because of the way like, you know, music.
I mean, the industry maybe, but I keep thinking in my head, like, music is just a giant, like, pyramid scheme somehow.
And I want to, like, make the connection to it.
It's like, if you just pay five thousand dollars for this Spotify, you know, Spotify placement playlist, then you're going to be the next big star.
And it's like, my email is more full of, like, people trying to get me to pay the money for stuff that's not going to work, like more than anything.
It's like, every day, like, you should be, your website needs work, you know, pay me.
And then it's like, you should be on this Spotify playlist, like, pay me thousands of dollars.
Oh, do you need a PR person?
Yeah, pay me like $10,000.
And like, I'll get you nothing.
Exactly.
You might get like a couple of little write ups that people just forget about in like a weekend.
And it does nothing, literally nothing for the status of your bank.
Like, there's just an article out there now that you could like link to in like, if you're emailing somebody, that's like, that's it.
You paid thousands of dollars potentially to have like an article that somebody just copy and pasted your bio most of the time.
Yeah, it's their thing.
And then they'll like, and then you could just show that and be like, look, like this is there, but that's it.
Like that, and that might like come up in a Google search, but it's not like that's like even, like even all these people, like all, like a lot of music editorials are just like, like nobody's reading them anymore.
Everybody's just scrolling on TikTok, you know, it's like, it's like, like music journalism used to help bands, and maybe it kind of does still a little bit, but it's like, it's not gonna like, I feel like even if you get like a pitchfork review, it's like not a guaranteed thing that your band is gonna do that much better, like you might, I mean, you probably will, you'll probably get like better shows, you'll get like...
Who knows though?
Like, who knows?
It really...
I don't think it's gonna like transcend into like, or translate into plays necessarily, you know, like that's like a thing that used to have, I feel like if something used to write about you, like you could definitely see like an increase in attention to your music, people would listen to it, but I don't even think, like I think, I don't think that's like necessarily the way it is anymore.
It's like, and then I think also it's like all turning into like digital marketing.
Like if you do want it to happen, you just have to pay somebody to make it happen.
And then they'll like kick back from that is just point, like you said, 0.00000000002 cents.
Like what are you going to, drop like a couple thousand dollars on marketing so that you can make that?
Like it's going to take like six years to get that money back.
Maybe.
The business is like capitalizing on like musicians, just like our like dream of wanting to make it.
That's why it's like an MLM or something, but it's not like one company doing it, but it's like every company is just like, give me a, yeah, give me like $4000 and your dreams will come true.
You're just gonna be like a rock star, you know?
And you're like, you're like, I could save that up and then I don't have to do anything as far as the logistics goes, like this person will do it, but like, there's no, that's just not gonna happen.
Like, there's no truth in that, you know, like somebody's, they're selling you snake oil.
Yeah.
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Back to the conversation now.
I don't know.
I'm sure there's people out there who genuinely care about the musicians, but it's just, it was just like, can you, can you pay me like money every day?
Yeah.
Why are you hitting up a musician?
Because musicians, they're the ones who hire everybody, which is hilarious because we make the least money, you know, in all of the whole music business.
And I just find it funny that we're the customers, you know, in the music industry.
Right.
And that's like, honestly, a lot of the reason we've gotten to where we are is because after the pandemic, when I had that money, I put it into the band.
Before that, I've never had a surplus of money to be like, I want to put it into this band.
But when the pandemic happened, I was getting all these checks from the government.
I was like, I'm just going to put this into my band.
And then we had things started happening.
And I was like, oh, you need to spend money.
And most people that make music don't have a lot of money to spend.
It just becomes a tricky dance.
Yeah.
And you DIY everything that you can.
But it's not always that easy to do that.
And it's not easy to make the coolest T-shirt design as a musician.
Right, you gotta pay an artist typically.
And you don't want to undervalue them.
But it's so funny.
I feel like everybody doesn't want to get undervalued.
Even like, I mean, this is going to sound shitty because a lot of photographers just take photos for free.
They're amazing.
They go to shows and they take photos of bands they like and they don't get anything in return.
But if you book a session with a photographer, it's going to be hundreds of dollars.
They're going to want a good for your portraits.
And you're like, cool.
But that never happens for the music.
When are they like, unless they're paying you to come play, but you got to travel there and do it.
I just feel like the musicians always doling out the money to make the thing for the Instagram.
It's like, you got to spend a ton of money to have this image to put on Instagram, which will go away in one day.
Yeah, and then your band gets $250, so open up, there's five of you, and you just drove nine hours to play for 30 minutes.
And then your car breaks down.
Yeah, and you're like, this is so worth it.
And then the festival you're supposed to go play is actually, everybody found out it's sponsored by the US Army.
So you have to cancel everything.
Yeah, just like, there's no winning, there's no...
Yeah, but I mean, it is worth it, though.
There's something inside that's like, this is so worth it.
So like, what is that for you?
Like, what keeps you going through this?
At this point, it's just like, I don't know, I don't even like think about it really that much.
At a certain point, there was like a lot of like existential, like, oh, is this what I do?
Or like, I don't know.
And like, at this point, I just don't even see, like, it's part of my identity at this point, where I'm like, I don't know, there's not really another path.
Like, I'm not going to go back to school.
Like, I'm not, like, I never even went to school.
Like, I went to like a, like a year of community college, and then was like, I was like paying for myself.
And I was like, I'm not, like, I would have to like be working full time to go to that school, and I would have zero time to play music, you know?
I was like, and I don't know, I mean, I'm very, I'm very, like, over the last few years, I've actually been very lucky, like, through the publishing deal, I've gotten some sync deals, and I wrote a song for an Apple TV show.
Like, I've experienced some of the successes of playing music at this point.
After 20 years of doing it, I finally, like, made some money in doing it.
Mostly, that's like mostly where the money in music is, is through, like, sync licensing, and that's even going down tremendously.
Like, the amount they're paying out for syncs is getting lower and lower and lower.
Because more, it's more just free and free and free.
Like, there's more bands throwing, like, it's just like when the thing is this exposure is like the is like the prize.
The payment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Then, like, you're just devaluing the thing entire.
Like, there's no actual profit to be made when, like, you're like, oh, you can, like, we'll just put your music in this movie for, but it will pay you, like, a little bit of money.
But, like, tons of people are going to hear it, you know?
Like, and then that's the value.
But then, like, cool, tons of people are going to hear it.
Maybe they'll go on Spotify and listen to it.
But then, like you said, there's no real money coming from that because the percentage is so low.
It's like, really, the only way to do it is to, like, keep going out there and keep playing.
I guess for me, the joy isn't getting on stage every night.
We genuinely love it.
Like, there's no replacement for it.
Like, I've taken time off of playing shows.
You know, I mean, even right now, like, right now, we're kind of, like, not playing that many shows.
We're, like, working on a bunch of new music, getting ready for this tour in Europe.
Want to, like, we have a finished EP, but I'm like, I want to make an album as well.
Like, I have all these demos that I'm like, we played so many shows last year, like, just all summer long.
Like, sometimes two a week.
You know, like, and I'm like, I kind of want to take a break and, like, just do the thing, but there's still this constant urge in, if you're like, if you're a real performer, like, we're all, we're all, like, constantly fighting the urge.
We've got, like, an inbox full of show offers.
We're just like, nope, sorry, but, like, you always want to do it.
Like, if you really, if you really love doing it, which I do, and everybody in the band does, we always want to do it.
It's like a fight to say no, which is, like, the toughest part about being a musician.
You're constantly being offered things to do, or, like, they want you to do it for free, essentially, and you want to do it for free, because you want to do it.
Like, that's why you're doing this.
That's why you were playing in the barn when you're, you know, like, you're like, one day they'll be asking us to do this, you know?
Yeah.
And they do, but it's just like, the more it just, the more and more you do it, I feel like, I don't know, I've been doing it now for like 20 years.
Like, we gotta like pick and choose the things we do now.
Like, client demand.
Yeah.
And for like, and just for your own like mental health, you know, like, you know how touring is, like, being on the road is not easy.
Like, I think everybody thinks it's the most fun thing, and it is the most fun thing a lot.
But it's also like, you come back from tour, and you're like, I get depressed for a while.
Same.
Real life is just, like, hard to just snap back into.
Like, it doesn't really, like, you get, like, you're, like, used to being constantly stimulated by something new and fun.
Then you come home, and you're like, what am I supposed to do now?
Like, you know, like, you're, like, kind of just, like, have this huge, like, dip in your energy level.
Yeah, I feel that I have, like, a week where I'm just kind of, like, laid out, sort of, and I'm just like, uh, it's really hard to do.
You, like, close the door.
I don't want to, like, talk to anybody for a day or two.
And it used to be different, you know, like, when I was younger, I would be like, whatever, I don't care.
Go play a show, go work all night, like, and then go not sleep.
But I'm like, I don't know, I'm going to be like 40 in three years.
I'm like, I don't know how many more, how many more I got, like, pick and choose now, you know, a little bit.
Yeah, I think we're going to surprise ourselves.
You know, there's just something weird within the musician makeup that is like, you just do it and you're like, oh yeah, three hours of sleep, like, I feel terrible, but I'm going to like rock out so hard, no one's going to know that like I am literally dying and like I have the worst stomach ache in my life right now.
Usually more so in those situations.
Yeah.
Because you got to like compensate, you got to like grind against it or something.
It's like, yeah, it's crazy.
Yeah.
Strange breed.
Yeah.
But you know, yeah, even I don't know, like I've always been like a pretty, like not like a crazy heavy drinker, but I've like pretty much drinking consistently since like my teenage years.
And now I'm even like, I got to like chill on that.
Like most of the time, like it's like, like on tours now I'm like, like I used to like on tour, like we would drink almost every night, you know, like depending on who's like driving, that person would not drink, but then everybody else would just drink, you know, like I was like, but now it's like, we like, like most of us in the band, like don't really drink that much on tour.
It's like, cause it's like becoming to the point where it's like, if we did that and sleep on the floor every night for three weeks, like you just don't, like the sustainability of that is just pretty rough, you know?
Oh yeah.
Especially like when you're singing too, that's like, yeah, it starts to get...
Yeah, I have like a regimen now.
I'm like, I gotta like take care of myself after the show.
I gotta like drink lots of water, you know?
I'm like, if we're doing this every night, it's like, I can't be just doing the like, not give a shit.
Go through phases where you're like a couple days of that and you're like, okay, gotta like chill for a second.
Cause it's fun to just like get into that, that flow of just being like, we're just doing it and like doesn't matter how I feel.
Like we're bigger than our bodies almost.
Like we're gonna like, we're gonna rock out past the pain, like you're saying, you know, like, but then that catches up with you.
Like then that just adds on to the time after tour, you got to recuperate.
How many brain cells you lost doing that, you know, like headbanging.
I know, I know, like the headbanging, it's like, it's so fun.
But every day I'm like, why, why do I do this?
Because it's just, I can't help it, you know?
It's so fun.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
It's good exercise, I guess.
Good exercise, yeah.
Neck-sercise?
Yeah.
Strengthening that neck.
Yeah, I know.
All right, my last question for you, and I guess we touched on this a little bit, but for all these cool opportunities that you've done, what have you sacrificed in your life for that?
I think mostly just any sense of security, really.
Like, in just a low, like, I don't know, I feel like it's a tricky, I don't like to say it, like, I have a low quality of life, but I have a much lower quality of life than I could have.
Like, I could work a normal job, save up money, maybe buy a house, you know, like, that's like not even like something I could consider at the moment, unless like some really great things happen, you know?
And it's never been, that's always been fine.
I just, I've always been like, that's not what I want necessarily, you know?
But I'd say like that, you know?
Maybe even like, like I didn't get to bury my grandfather because I was on tour once in Europe, like, which would have been really cool to do.
Yeah, I really loved my grandfather, but it was like a situation where I was like, I'd have to like, basically screw, like the whole tour would have to end if I did, for the whole band.
And like, he wouldn't have wanted that.
My whole family was like, he wouldn't want that.
He would understand, you know?
Don't do it.
But it's like stuff like that.
You like, you miss things.
You're like, we're going to be gone at Thanksgiving.
And like, yeah, it's kind of a bullshit holiday anyway.
But at the time my family gets together, we're going to be in Europe, you know?
Just, I don't know.
It's, I feel like what people that don't play music don't realize is like, it's both selfless and selfish.
Like you have to be pretty selfish to do it.
Like you have to be like, I'm going to make this the priority.
But you're also like sacrificing great qualities of life that's like, the great comforts that they get every night.
Like knowing how much money is coming in every week is like a comfort that I haven't really like felt in kind of a while.
Like in like a great sense, you know?
Like at least like in the future, like I'll be like, oh yeah, I'm working at this Cavabar for now until I got to go on tour.
You know?
Like I know how much, roughly how much money I'll make till then.
But it's like when I get back from that tour, I might not have a job because like somebody else took the position, you know, like I feel like just a sense of like knowing what your life is going to look like, which is nice.
But also something I've always felt a little bit like part of the beauty of life is not knowing and like rolling with it.
And, you know, right.
But yeah, I'd say probably that that and like just like.
Comfort, a lot of comfort, like this is the first time I've ever lived alone and I don't know if you can see it, but this is the whole apartment.
This is literally nice.
Oh, yeah, I didn't notice that because I see some spices.
Yeah, that's the kitchen right there.
That's the kitchen and then that's the bedroom.
It's all just one room.
That's cool.
I like your hats too.
You got a lot of hats.
Yeah, but yeah, a lot of places, there's no place to go outside.
It's just like you kind of got to like, I feel like when you're a musician, you got to find the living situations that are the, they just work most with your lifestyle.
And oftentimes, that's like a pretty, you know, it's not necessarily the greatest conditions to live in or like I've lived in like apartments or places that I was just like, I just kind of sucked, but it was just like what you had to do at the time to keep playing and stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What about you?
What's your, what do you think?
Sacrificed life.
Did I sacrifice?
Oh, definitely money for sure.
Like, yeah, it's just like, yeah, just future, future me.
I've sacrificed a lot of comfort for future me.
Right.
And same thing, like just not having the life of, you know, buying a house, getting some property, even like I love my van, but like I would like a little bit of a nicer situation there, you know, but I don't live beyond my means, which I really appreciate about myself.
But because of that, my and my means are very small.
So I live very small, compact.
Yeah.
Which I kind of always just like that vibe anyway.
So it's totally OK with me.
But and I never really liked a sense of I'm going to, I know what I'm going to do in three years.
Like that's why that office job, corporate job I had a long time ago, like kind of made me really sad because I was like it didn't excite me.
Right.
But I think the older I get, the more I'm seeing my friends who have more of a normal life with like the house with the cool studio downstairs with like money to buy the guitar that they like, you know, like a fun guitar pedal.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I wish I could have that too, you know.
And, you know, maybe we both will one day.
And it's just, it kind of feels like being a musician is a lot like gambling, you know, you're like you're gambling your life, you're betting on yourself that you're going to be able to, you know, make up for that eventually.
And this like, yeah, the royalties or something's going to have sinks going to come in.
And yeah, I've I think just money is my main, my main thing because I have to make up money after I come home from tour.
And, you know, I do like five different jobs when I come home and I'm always just like piecing it together.
And it's this kind of stressful freelance situation right now where, you know, I wish my time was just valued more as a musician, basically, because then I could come home and not have I could actually relax and, like, you know, be calm after the storm of the tour and, like, not be freaking out about, you know, how am I going to pay rent next month kind of thing?
Totally.
So, yeah, I guess that and I feel like also just like general health, I feel like the stress on the body that I put I put on my body from touring so much is like a lot.
It doesn't there's a lot of like the fun aspect that I feel like maybe balance that out, but they're, you know, sleeping on in random places, like disgusting places a lot like, I don't know, I feel like I've stressed myself, like and the head banging and everything.
It's like, I'm like, what did I do to myself?
Like, this is crazy.
I had to start wearing a back brace on our last tour, like during set.
I like really during one of our shows, like I think Taylor thought I was like closer than I was and he went to do like a back bend and I was like not there to catch, I was like, but I had to like throw my weight off to like catch him or else he would have just like fallen on the ground.
And so like when I did that, like something in my back just like tweaked and I was like, like I had to go to like a chiropractor in Austin, had to pay like 100 bucks to go see, like it didn't take my insurance, but I was like, I'm seriously in so much pain and they put like electrodes on me and they gave me like an adjustment and maybe like three or four days later, I was like pretty okay, but like that night I was like, I need to like, like I was like wearing this back brace and like I had to take like some like painkillers to just like get through the show.
I was like, this is like brutal, like just from playing the show.
And yeah, and like, and sitting in a car all day is terrible for your body.
I have terrible knees now.
I have like arthritis in both my knees.
And I'm like, that's maybe not directly from playing music, but that's definitely from like working a lot of manual.
Like I used to be a mover to pay for my lifestyle.
I was a bus boy in that restaurant and that place like the kitchen was downstairs.
So you were like 12 hour ships going up and down the stairs with bus tubs full of dishes, like grinding my knees away.
Like it's just like, I feel like, yeah, physical, physical shit is huge.
And even just like, I feel like we age, like you age a lot faster just doing this.
You're eating weird.
You're like eating from gas stations or like, I don't know.
I've noticed too with with Gustav, the more the bigger shows we do, the earlier we have to be at the venue.
That's the brutal part.
Yeah.
Touring as a headliner is the worst because then you got to like get there.
You don't have time.
Yeah.
You don't have any, you have to wake up at like eight in the morning to drive like seven, eight hours to get there by like 3 p.m.
Right.
And then you have to sound check and then like, maybe you could eat one meal.
Yeah.
And you don't really want to because you don't want to play music all full of food.
Yeah.
Because it gives you a stomach ache.
Yeah.
You're all like sluggish if you're too full.
Yeah.
I remember being in Hey Baby, especially playing drums as you as a drummer, like playing after like eating a burger or something is like the worst thing.
It's like you're just like drumming is like you're like working out.
Yeah.
Like eat a burger and then like run around.
You know, like that's what you want to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah, there's a lot.
But it's also it's like in the end, it's like I said, we're just built that way.
We're like, sounds good to me.
Let's do it.
Like let's do for 20 years.
It sounds great.
Yeah.
I've been like this year, I've actually been like trying like being like, I'm going to like work out and be healthy.
Like when I'm not on tour, like I'm going to like build my body stronger.
So that when I'm on tour, like it's like, but I've never done that.
My whole like, I don't know, I've just always been like, whatever, like I'm young, you know, but I'm like, I'm not that young anymore.
I actually have to like do things now to like maintain.
Yeah, you have to get strong so you could like wither away on tour.
Exactly.
I'm doing the same thing, actually.
My sister has been, she invited me to go to the gym with her and I took it up, took her up on it and I've been going with her.
And it honestly helps so much just sitting in the car, like when you're stronger, like it just, I don't know, it doesn't hurt as much.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just basic stuff like that.
It's, yeah.
I remember when I was in high school and our first band started, me and my best friend, we started first band.
And the drummer, he picked up a book from the library that was like how to make it in the music industry.
And I remember there was this whole section about going to the gym.
And we were like, are you kidding me?
That's so stupid.
Like, and they're like, literally like a whole chapter, like you got to stay in shape.
And we're like, what are they talking about?
Like, this is so weird.
Like, then you're a musician.
And then now I'm like, oh yeah, like that's smart.
Yeah, I've always kind of like thought it was like, like seeing like Henry Rollins and he's all like ripped and stuff.
I was like, that's lame.
But now I'm like, maybe I should like get strong.
Like, I don't know, like I'm like, or else I'm gonna like maybe die or something.
I don't know.
I'm like, if I just keep doing what I'm doing, like, like, I don't know if it's gonna last.
I think I have to like, do like the and like all the like information and sciences out there now that it's just like, oh, yeah, you're like supposed to like, walk like 10,000 steps a day.
Like, if you don't, you're like, that's like, you're actually doing like damage to your body.
Like, it's like being sedentary.
I think like all these studies after the pandemic came out, they're like being sedentary is just like, slowly like, depleting everything, like your bone health, your joint health.
Like, you're supposed to be moving around all the time as human beings, like, you know, we're supposed to be walking around looking for berries or whatever.
Like, we're just not, we're just like sitting on a computer or sitting in a car, you know?
And I feel like, for the first, like, I've never really cared that might've been like, whatever, I'm tired all the time.
That's just how life is.
But now I'm like, oh, what if I were like to work out?
Maybe that would make that like a regular thing.
Then I might feel better.
And I do.
I feel like way better.
Yeah.
I saw a video of Billie Eilish.
She just started working out too.
And she was like, wow, I feel so much better and perform way better.
It's crazy.
Turns out I'm not that depressed, actually.
I just was like sitting on my phone for 12 hours a day.
I'm feeling bad.
I didn't know why.
Yeah.
I think in a way that's like, I think it's going to be, I think it's becoming pretty pot, like a lot of people are starting to be like, oh, I've got to go for a hike.
This is stuff that just does good stuff for our neurology.
We need to do this kind of stuff.
And I feel like for so long, that was just not common knowledge or whatever.
I don't know, maybe it's becoming more like, I feel like there's a health movement happening right now.
And I think it's pretty cool.
I think people are taking, they're like, I don't know, for so long, I feel like it was just cool to just be depressed and be like, I'm just lethargic.
That's who I, you know, I'm just gonna express it through this music.
But now I feel like it's becoming punk rock to be like, no, I'm gonna fucking bike 10 miles today.
You know, like you're like 20 miles today and like lift some weights.
Yeah, yeah.
I know.
I love that.
Because, yeah, I do feel like the musician lifestyle has always been kind of like, yeah, just drink and stay up all night.
And now people are like, wait a minute.
Yeah.
I don't feel good.
Yeah.
Yeah, I would love that if it really does take off and everyone, you know, like, man, I would kill if like every place we played was like here, instead of two drink tickets, here's like carrots and celery, you know, or like hummus or something like, I mean, some places we get that kind of thing with like a rider.
Yeah, but you get that kind of stuff.
I feel like they're like, here you go.
Here's like a nice little green room snack for you.
Yeah.
Cold snacks.
I remember our first tour in Germany, we showed up and they were like, before Loden, you ate the cold snacks.
Nice.
Yeah.
And then after Loden, you soundchecked, and then you ate the beautiful dinner that they made.
And I was like, and you ate with the sound person and the promoter and the door person, and we all just ate this sit down healthy dinner together.
Like home cooked meal.
Yeah.
It's amazing.
Europe's the best.
Yeah.
They get it over there.
Yeah.
And then they're like, here's a free place to stay.
Right.
Yeah.
Here, they're just like, you're so lucky to be doing this, so we're not going to give you anything.
Here's two drink tickets.
Give me a hundred dollars.
Give me your stack of money and then you can play.
That was like the loft.
You know, like you had to show your stack of money, like a hundred dollars, hand it to them.
They give you like 40 back and then you play your set.
And you're like, okay, great.
Yeah.
And you're like 17 years old.
You're like, how is this is a strange business.
You're making money off of high school kids, bringing their fans to your venue.
Yeah, I just remember that.
Yeah.
And then you're like, do I get like, I remember the Stano Pous in New Jersey.
I remember handing them a huge stack of cash.
Like it was just like quantities, you know, like stack of 20s.
They handed me literally $40 that day.
And then I was like, do we get drink tickets or food or discount anything?
The lady just like laughed at me and she was like, oh, are you crazy?
And I was like, oh my gosh.
Yeah.
You should be so lucky to even be here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
Thank you so much.
All right, friends, thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of What It Takes To Be A Rockstar.
I hope you enjoyed that conversation.
Please let me know your thoughts, your feelings about it, if anything surprised you or did not surprise you.
Again, you can send in any questions you might want me to ask musicians in the future to whatittakestoberockstar.gmail.com.
Thank you so much for listening.
Share it with your friends if you like it or think they'll be interested.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'll see you on tour.
Tune in next week.
There's going to be another rocking episode.
What It Takes To Be Rockstar.
I'm not stopping while I'm on tour.
It's going to be better than ever.
