What It Takes To Be A Rockstar
Host and musician Melissa Lucciola talks with signed and DIY musicians from around the world about their lives behind the scenes. From maxing out credit cards, sleeping on floors, sharing beds and getting paid $250 to play Madison Square Garden, you will hear the in's and out's of life on and off the road and the real struggles of the modern day musician.
What It Takes To Be A Rockstar
Episode 1 - 95 Bulls - Riding the line between DIY and having an agent
This week I talk with Emily Ashenden from the band 95 Bulls about her story with music, how her band got a booking agent and how they afford to tour.
Find out more about 95 Bulls here:
https://www.95bullsnyc.com/
https://www.instagram.com/95bullsnyc/
Edited, recorded, mixed and produced by Melissa Lucciola.
This episode is sponsored by SORRY Cables - rad and colorful quality instrument and microphone cables handmade in LA.
Intro song is called "I'm Starting a Podcast" by Tea Eater
Other music is by Pretty World
Alright, hello everybody.
Welcome to the first ever episode of What It Takes To Be A Rockstar.
I am your host, Melissa Lucciola, aka Mel.
And I'm here today with the Emily Ashenden of 95 Bulls and the world famous hot dog.
All right, like I said, my name is Mel, and I'm a musician, a multi-instrumentalist, a singer, and a songwriter.
And I've been playing a band since 2007, and touring since 2010.
And I've done both DIY tours, and tours booked by booking agents, and I've released records independently, and with labels, and I decided to start this podcast because I'd like more people to understand how much musicians, specifically, original musicians, give to do what they do.
And of course, nobody asked any of them to get up and go on tour and start writing songs and playing shows, but they did it because they wanted to, right?
So what's the problem?
But at the same time, could you imagine your life without your favorite album?
If that artist never wrote that album, or your life without that song that you turn to when times are really tough, or without that concert to look forward to at the end of a really hard week?
Have you ever considered what those musicians gave up to make that album or to go on that tour?
Have you considered that they had to sacrifice anything at all to do it?
I'm of the belief that music picks you, and when you have it in you, it wants to come out, and you really don't have a choice in the matter.
And of course, the starving artist concept is not new, but as the cost of living rises and streaming takes hold of the industry with little to sometimes no pay, I find it extremely tough to make ends meet as an original musician today.
So many bands are actually losing money going on tour, and even musicians in studios are already getting replaced by AI.
So I wondered to myself, how are the other musicians doing?
So I started this podcast where I'm going to talk to musicians from all walks of life about their journey, their career, how they afford it, how they make it all work.
And for my first conversation, I talked with the band leader of an up and coming band from Brooklyn, New York, and they're called 95 Bulls.
I love this band.
I love the people in this band.
They're great and their music is great.
And they formed in 2020.
And since then, they've made amazing music and they've gotten a booking agent and they've opened up for big acts like Waves and Sunflower Bean, Sheer Mag, LA Witch, and a lot more.
And I sat down with their singer, Emily Ashenden, in her kitchen in Queens to hear all about it.
And her tiny little adorable dog named Pooka was there.
And you might occasionally hear Pooka walking around in the kitchen, her nails are tapping on the floor.
And also my mic was a little wonky that day, so please don't mind the less than perfect audio.
But I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.
And here we go.
Tell me about what got you into music.
Like, when is your villain origin story?
I feel like the first time I was really, I mean, I loved The Spinners when I was a kid.
I loved Motown and The Spinners, and I was like, man, it seems really cool to just have a group of people where you do this together.
So the idea of a band was really entrancing to me from a young age.
But I think I tried it a lot when I was younger, and it just never worked.
I had a girl group with friends, so it was called Peer Pressure.
When I was in middle school, it was terrible.
It was really bad.
None of us really played.
And then I kind of, in high school, my best friend and I formed a duo project, and then we played all over Chicago in sandwich shops and stuff for a long time.
So that's how we'd make money on the weekends.
It was a lot, barely any originals because everyone wanted to hear covers and stuff.
So you started with the covers.
I played for Monica a lot.
It was a bummer.
We got through it.
It was a whole lot.
Potbelly Sandwich Works was like our number one chain that we hit.
Dang, you played sandwich shops in Chicago.
It was kind of the dream, I don't know.
It was cool because people, it was nice to be like the pressure was off.
They were there for the sandwiches and you were the happy accident.
So it was cool.
Yeah.
All right, so how'd you get into these sandwich shops?
Did you like call them?
Did you email them?
I would go there and I would eat, and there was this guy that worked at the first Pop Belly we played at, and we called them Blue Eyes because he had these bright blue eyes.
My friend Sarah and I would smoke a lot of weed, and then we would go over there and get sandwiches after school.
We saw a couple of musicians in there playing, and we were like, whoa, they do live music here?
That's crazy.
We slipped him a word.
We were like, we do this thing once in a while where we play music at her house, and he was like, I'll tell my manager, and then he got us in there, and then we did pretty good.
We started cleaning up at this one location.
Yeah, people were dropping us 20s.
No way.
And then they kind of like spread us around like different, like Northern Chicago locations of this potbelly place.
And what's potbelly doing right now?
They're doing, they're killing it.
Really?
Yeah.
But I honestly, when I go back to Chicago, when I like, they have one here too, in like Union Square or something.
Gotta get in there.
I'm, dude, I'm just trying to relive my glory days.
But yeah, when I go back there, I see the stages, which were these like, they were weird.
In every single location, they had like one that was like up, you had to climb a ladder, and it was like you were on a platform in the corner of the room, almost like you were a speaker.
Weird.
And then there were some that were on the floor in a way that was also strange because you were next to people's tables.
Oh, that's a lot.
Awkward.
It was a little awkward, but we got through it.
It taught me a lot.
Yeah, that's a way to learn.
When you play the restaurant gigs, that's a real way to learn.
Definitely.
Not any sandwich shops, I don't think, but I've had my share of being the weirdo in the corner who's playing to people who did not want to see live music that day.
Oh, God.
Yeah.
There's nothing worse than like, pardon my Jason Mraz for a second.
It wasn't that, but I mean, it's weird.
If people love it or they or you get quieter, you know, and that was the vibe.
Did they pay you or was it just tips only?
Tips only, but we got food.
So like they would give us a sandwich and occasionally a cookie, which was right.
You know how I feel about that.
It was like, I'm in with the cookie.
You had me at cookie.
But people would tip us really well.
So we would walk away with some good, some good weed money from the podcast team.
Did you have a band or just the two of you with like?
Yeah.
It was like, it was just the two of us.
And like once in a while, like someone might come in and like help us out, but we've like performed at a lot of like, like people's houses and shit and stuff.
And she played everything.
She passed away, but she was like really, really, really good at every instrument.
It was bananas.
Sorry to hear that.
Thanks.
Yeah.
So you did that.
You played in the sandwich shop.
Where'd you go after that?
So then it was like college.
We did that all through high school and we would get like a couple of gigs, like across the city, but I think neither of us like took it that seriously.
And we both were kind of doing our thing.
Like she was like an anthropologist and wanted to like go to school.
And like, she went to Bard for a little bit and I was an actor and a writer and I was like, I want to go to theater school and I want to write comedy.
So in my mind, music was always this like, was a hobby or like something that I couldn't do full time because it just didn't make sense.
I didn't know how that could be something sort of stable or in my life all the time.
And then when I came here, it was just like, it was so hard not to have that outlet for a while.
So it wasn't long I think before I started looking for people to play with.
Did you come here for college?
Yeah, so you came from Chicago to Queens?
Yeah, no, I came from Chicago to Manhattan.
I lived in the West Village for like five years.
What?
Oh God, it was amazing.
It was, you know, all those sitcoms, so true.
So true.
I felt like Jerry right now.
No, but I did like live in this like closet.
It was, I don't know how I found it, but it was like a closet in the West Village where it should have been like a million dollars, but because of my space being so small, it was like kind of affordable.
It was less than dorms were.
Really?
Yeah.
They really get you with the dorms in the city.
But yeah, I had like a little, when I walked in to view the apartment, I was like, holy shit, there's a dishwasher.
And they were like, that's your fridge.
And it was like this, but it was like the size of a shoebox.
And I was like, that's okay.
I don't even cook, so.
Yeah, yeah.
What did you live off of?
I lived off of good vibes.
I lived off of a dream.
Yeah.
How long did it take you to make a band when you got to the city?
A long time, because I was like around, I tried playing with people that were in my college.
And there was also like a jazz school connected.
So there were a lot of like musicians around all the time.
But and I would make music and stuff with the people around me.
But I never, nothing ever like really spoke to me or I felt like was my vibe.
And it wasn't until I moved to Brooklyn when I was like, I think I was at like a karaoke night.
The first time I met some people that I wanted to like play with, they like hit me up.
It was like these three dudes was my first band, Ash Jesus.
And I was like singing a song and they were like, what's up?
Do you have a band?
And I was like, no, what I fucking want one.
And then we started practicing together.
That's cool.
And they were great because they were doing the kind of stuff that I wanted to do, which was like, I mean, it was post-punky kind of stuff.
I was like, okay, this is my speed.
Everything else was a little soft for my taste.
I think.
So what happened with that band?
What was the story?
So, I mean, it kind of came together.
It was really short-lived.
I think we were probably like only playing out for like a year and a half or two years or something.
But everyone was in different bands from that.
And like we were all wild and crazy and doing our own thing.
And that was like right before my journey to sobriety.
So I think I was kind of, I was in and out.
I was checking in and out.
But yeah, like they're all doing their own thing.
Like Johnny Dynamite, who was our drummer.
He lives in Philly.
Great drummer name.
He was a tank.
Yeah, sounds like it.
He was a total tank.
But he lives in Philly now.
And yeah, he's doing his thing out there.
And then Cammie's still here.
I think he started a new band.
He was in Winer.
You know them, right?
Cause Jersey.
I've heard, yes, yes.
I haven't heard that name in a while though.
No.
Are they still a band?
Uh-uh.
I think his, so his brother's in this band, Hi, and like has his own project now.
It's like Hi with a period on the end.
And that's the end.
Like H-I or H-I?
It's H-I-G-H with a period on the end.
Period, okay.
Punctuate that shit.
Yeah, punctuate it.
That's cool.
Yeah.
All right.
So what was your feeling going from like the Chicago sandwich shop playing covers?
Because I feel like in my experience, cover bands have a way easier time in life.
And that's a big part of why I want to talk about like, I'm talking with original musicians on this podcast because it's such a different world.
Like it's crazy different, the money's different.
You have to put in so much money into recording your music.
When you're a cover band, you just kind of, you're riding the coattails of the already recorded music out there.
It's cushy.
Yeah, it's nice.
It's like, yeah, you have to put in the work to learn the stuff.
But, and New York is like an animal of itself for playing.
So what was your experience going from this, like playing covers at a sandwich shop, getting thrown like 20s to playing in New York?
Like what was your first show in New York?
Do you remember with Ash Jesus?
And what was that experience like?
And what, did anything line up with like what you were expecting or was it different?
That's, I think that like I, in a weird way, yeah, it's a lot, it was a lot more pressure probably, but I think that the minute that it happened, I was like, oh fuck, I love this so much more.
And I played, I remember, my first show was at Alphaville.
Really?
Way back in the day.
And I played with Kahim Rivera, who's an amazing rapper.
And he was just doing something and releasing.
And I was like, I think I have this band, I don't know.
I wanna hop on to something you're doing.
And so it was there.
And yeah, I think that it was the first, it also was the first time I was singing material where I was like, oh, this is all my own.
I think for so long, I was used to singing with someone else, because my best friend, when we had a band together, it was like, part of the whole thing was blending our voices in a way that made sense.
And it was being a unit.
So finding my own voice as a solo singer, the only person singing, was really freeing in a weird way.
It was like, oh, wow, okay.
I think that maybe I wanna do things that are different than what I was doing.
So it was cool.
I was more excited than anything.
I didn't really think about making it serious.
And then that kind of happened by accident a little bit.
I was like, oh, wait, I think that maybe this is more of a priority for me.
Because it mixes everything I love.
I wanna be an actor and I wanna tell jokes, but I also wanna sing and then why can't I do all of that?
Yeah, there is that saying that a lead singer secretly wants to be a comedian and comedians secretly wanna be lead singers.
I don't think it's a secret.
For me.
It's like I'm not keeping that secret well.
Whoopsie.
Yeah.
No, but I gotta cool it with some of that too, because I feel like my band is like, oh my God, half of our set is chatting.
So I've tried to pull the reins.
That's so helpful though.
Sometimes I've had the same issue and everyone's like, oh my gosh, you talk so much.
I love when you talk, especially at Punk Island, you know I was your best.
I was just looking at you the whole time.
I was straight peeing in my pants in the front.
I was like, you hear this guy?
I got canceled like four times that day by myself.
You canceled yourself.
I was like, why did I say that?
Then the next thing came out of my mouth, I was like, why did I say that?
It's weird when you're up there sometimes, the filter just floats away.
It's great.
I start saying some shit that I have no business saying.
It's really bananas.
I check in with Matt, though, he gives me the eyes if I've gone too far.
He's like, you got to pull in the reins.
But you were great.
And you canceled yourself, which is half the battle.
Yeah.
Don't let other people cancel you.
Cancel yourself first.
That is a huge job.
Yeah.
So that first show that you played at Alphaville, what was the vibe like?
Oh, it was weird because also, I don't know, like it was such a smattering of people on that bill.
I think I was like, I think I was nervous for the first, that was like the, that was the last night I ever drank, which is really weird.
Yeah.
But I was nervous and I, I think I had like a couple of drinks before and I was like, once I did that, I was like, oh, this is really exhilarating.
And I think in a way too, that became my new, my new obsession, my new drug of choice.
I was like, more shows, a lot.
And then I just never stopped playing shows for a while.
Well, every time we could book a show, we were playing it.
Did you actively seek the shows or were people like reaching out to you to play?
We got lucky.
I think a lot of people were reaching out to us right off the bat, but I was prepared just from what my bandmates at the time said to be ready to find our own opportunities or build our own spots.
But we got really lucky.
Okay, cool.
Yeah, that's awesome when that when it just is self, whatever you want to call it like, it's just people are just reaching out to you.
That makes it a lot easier because before that happens, it's just like a lot of cold emailing and emailing and emailing.
I feel like there's like there's a thing with that, though, where it's like if you do lose momentum in any sort of way of like playing a bunch, a bunch, a bunch, even for us, like we've taken my current band, we've taken like a lot of time to be writing this next record and time off and like once you like kind of go away for a second, like there is that stress of like, oh shit, like things aren't flying to us the way that they were at one point.
And that can be scary.
It's like, oh, God, I hope we didn't go quiet or dark for too long.
Right.
I know there is always that fear that it's like, I don't want people to forget about me, but like they they they can't.
They can't forget about 95 Bulls.
Come on.
How do people describe your music so people can know what to expect?
Because I hate genre tizing on a band.
It's pretty rocky without question.
But yeah, it's I think our first record was very sharp and abrupt.
And this next record is going to be different.
So I'm I'm excited.
I think that we're getting there's a lot more psyche aspects to it, for sure.
Well, but I'm excited.
I think the main thing we try to do with this record is like explore more jammy territory.
Okay, cool.
That's cool.
And having Matt on board, because he's like our newer, newer edition.
He's so great.
And I think he has this way of like making something really ugly in the right way.
And I like that.
I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The new songs I heard at Punk Island were just like super incredible.
And those ones, I felt like a lot of heart in the lyrics and the music.
Yeah, for sure.
It was like bursting out of you and your eyeballs.
It's true.
I think that this one's.
Yeah, there's this is going to be there's a lot of feeling in this one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really cool.
I'm really excited.
I think they're all a product of their time.
But I feel like the first record happened because we were like, we've been locked up for so long and just like bursting.
But you know how it is.
Yeah.
It's just a product of whatever is going on at that time.
Yeah.
And so as like a team, your band, how do you all work together?
Like you split up responsibilities or is there like, you know, is it all on you?
I think we're lucky because now with this group that we have, everyone's super all hands on deck, which is nice.
But like we, yeah, no, we all kind of find things and answer things together.
But no, I do a lot of e-mailing.
Yeah.
What kind of e-mails?
Just answer it.
Kayla e-mails to you once in a while, but you can always tell which one of us is e-mailing because Kayla will write a novel.
She'll write back to you.
I'm pretty quick, but she's like, she takes that sweet time.
She puts the good words in, you know.
She writes beautiful e-mails.
I've received a couple of them there.
Oh yeah.
They're gorgeous.
Yeah.
They're so nice.
I was like, this is gorgeous writing.
I know.
I'm like, it makes me look like a fucking asshole.
You're just like, yeah, that sounds good, bro.
Thanks so much.
She's like, the wind with which carry your words to the laptop has graced our minds and I'm like, good God.
All right.
We can just say, see you at sound check.
I don't know.
You can get an email from the future here.
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I had this dream of, cause Zach and I like really poke fun at her emails.
And we wanted to do merch that was like all of her emails.
Oh, that'd be so good.
Could be fun.
It's something.
But yeah, Zach also has been like such a rock for me in this project too.
Cause he's so busy and like he tours with Mystery Lights a lot so it's hard to like, that's another part of all of this, right?
It's like having people who are in a thousand projects or, well, he's not, he's only in two, but like one that tours a lot is crazy.
Yeah.
Do they take the priority or does 90, or is it kind of-
He's has it pretty well.
And Mike and I talk a lot too, so it's nice.
But like for them, it's like they get paid over in Europe.
It's like they're sought after, they're this really big band over there.
It's nice.
That's cool.
Yeah.
I've heard of them for a long time.
Yeah.
They've been going at it for a good amount of-
So when it's like they're doing a European tour, right towards the end of this fall run that we're doing, so we won't have him for this festival that we're doing in St.
Louis.
And I'll miss him so much.
Because there's so many bands on there that him and I talk about loving during puberty, so I'll have to FaceTime him.
Oh, but on stage.
Totally.
He'll be there.
I'll just leave him right next to the kit.
Yeah.
You know.
Do you have to get a substitute person regularly?
We usually use Lou as his name.
He's really great.
He's in like Nick Cage.
Do you know that band?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's cool.
And like he has a new one, genuine connection.
And yeah, he does a lot of, he's so good.
He's great.
Cool.
So your band, you have a booking agent now, right?
Yes.
So how did that happen?
Because I know a bunch of people listening probably are like, I want a booking agent because that's like really hard to get.
It seems like, yeah.
And like even so, even the one that we have, like we're not quite, we don't know how long that'll last because like we, you know, we're a passing thing.
He's getting bigger.
His company is getting bigger.
Like he's, he is these huge artists right now.
So he like throws us bones, you know, basically it's like, if there's festivals, he thinks we'd be a good fit for, like he kind of throws us in the ring there.
But even so, it's like, we probably need another booking agent for like, if we want to do like, we're going to go on tour with Dead Tooth.
It's like something like that.
Like we kind of have to book with someone else or ourselves or like a smaller agent, like figure something out.
It's like, it's still something we're figuring out right now.
Even if we have one for like the bigger stuff, we're not quite finding an agent that's the right size for you.
Right.
It can be tough.
Right.
Yeah.
So how did you get your booking agent?
Did they come to you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He came to us, which was lucky.
And he represents a couple of people we know, Thicc and Sloppy Jane and people like that.
But yeah, he hit us up and he believed in us.
It was a weird time of transition where we were regrouping the whole band when he came.
So it's been two years since we've put stuff out for real.
So he was really patient with that, I think, and is still giving us good shows.
But yeah, he's very transparent with us, too, where it's like you guys have taken a while to form and you need to get out there and do your thing.
And I'm gonna give you opportunities where I see them being good for you.
But yeah, I think that it is one of those things where if you're a small fish still with an agent who's got a lot of other shit going on, it's still a lot of work to self book things.
To make tours, like smaller tours for, you know.
So you have this agent who will throw you some things here and there, but so in the case of the Dead Tooth Tour, you guys are gonna book it yourselves.
Okay.
That's kind of a cool place to be though, cause it's like you still have your choice to just go on tour whenever you want.
You're not like, you know, at the mercy of whenever this booking agent is like, yeah, go, you know.
So that is kind of a cool place cause he's not gonna take a cut of anything you book yourself.
Or is he?
No.
Yeah.
So that's, that's pretty cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Honestly, I think that's a pretty cool spot to be.
Yeah.
No, I totally agree.
I think that we like now or for the first time wanting to get on the road as frequently as possible.
How are you gonna do that?
So do you have, does your band have a van?
I'm actually in the market right now.
Really?
I'm talking to Zach from Dead Tooth, too, because he's got this, have you seen his van?
He has an old van, doesn't he, yeah.
An old Toyota.
Yeah, that's what I have an old play in it, too.
You do?
Yeah, it's right out front.
Reliable as hell, right?
Yeah, that's why I went for the Yodas.
And one of my best friends is a Toyota mechanic, so I was like, I have to do this.
Oh, that's amazing.
Yeah, yeah, it's very helpful.
Yeah, I think it's time for one of those.
He's gonna give me his Toyota guy.
He has a Toyota guy.
We got the van from him.
He's like, this guy buys them and then he got them and then he'll give them to you.
And I'm a little nervous about the mechanic part of it because, you know, I'm not the, that's not my area.
It's not my learning style.
Right, right, right.
I'll figure it out.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're in the market for Toyota and you're getting these offers here and there from your booking agent.
So how do you all make it work as a band, like financially?
Like, you all have jobs.
Do you live off of money you're getting from shows?
Like, like, let's let's hear the the nitty gritty.
Well, how you make it work?
It's not as beautiful and shiny as it may appear on Instagram.
Just kidding.
No, I have a job.
I'm like, I'm full time, but like, I'm very fortunate because my boss likes my band and like they're they're artists.
But I work for this like fabrication company and I'm a painter, so I'm in the paint department and it's like full time.
But I told them when I went full time, it took a while because I was freelance forever.
I was just doing like movie TV stuff where I could.
But they were like, you should go full time.
And I was like, no, I want to have the freedom to like tour, do whatever.
And they agreed that like I would be able to do that.
I'd be able to like tour if I needed to.
And it was amazing.
It was a lucky situation.
So I just spend my Monday through Friday painting a lot of guns and like prop, the props, I'm so sorry, fake guns.
I don't like violence, but this is for like, you know, Samuel L.
Jackson to feel cool, you know, that's what I feel good about that.
Or like a hammer.
Yeah.
For like Steve Martin to hit what's his name with in the...
Are they heavy?
Would it actually hurt?
So they're casts of, well, some of them are heavy, depending on, there's like hard, medium, and soft casts that I'll be painting.
The soft casts take forever because you're like filling and sanding all these holes, and it's a whole thing.
So when you get a hard cast, that's the money, you know?
Doesn't take too long, easy breezy.
All right, you're such a pro.
This is not what people signed up for.
No, this is...
This is exactly what I want people to hear, though.
Like what are musicians doing to make it work?
Because it's not the easiest thing to find a boss who's like, yeah, sure, go for a month.
Like it's it's really hard.
And then you're going for a month and it's like, are you getting paid when you're on tour?
You know, are you are you making any money?
Like like people think, oh, you're you're out there, you know, playing in front of all these people, surely you're doing like wonderfully at this.
And it's like it's like you does your band when you're on tour.
Do you come back with any money or is it all back into the expenses?
You know?
Yeah.
And it's like like we for our West Coast run, we got lucky.
We were able to come back with some money, which is cool, because the merch went OK.
You have the merch.
The merch is like Portland, Seattle.
We're pretty good to us.
So it was it was lucky.
But yeah, you never know.
And for us, like how whatever money we make.
And there was like a year in like 2022, we made a good, good batch.
But we don't split that like for us.
We kind of save it and put it back into the band.
So yeah, into like recording and exactly into your Toyotas into a toy.
Yeah, we don't have enough in the Toyota fund right now, but I'm working on it.
All right, Mel, from the future here, I wanted to let you all know that I caught up with Emily after our conversation and I asked specifics.
I said, hey, you know, people may want to know the actual numbers here, so let's hear them.
And she was kind enough to share them with me.
So I asked what they usually get for a show and she told me for most of their support slots they get around $250 guaranteed.
And then with local DIY bills, you know, bills that are split with usually three or four other bands, they generally walk with around 500 bucks, which is pretty great if you ask me.
And sometimes they've gotten as lucky as to leave with around $850.
But occasionally they leave with 100 bucks.
So it's super random.
And like she said, they take that money.
They put it straight into the band fund or towards their van fund for the future.
And this is for a band that is drawing people in New York.
So that means they're selling tickets at the door.
And that can really help the cause.
Usually there's not a baseline guarantee for a local band.
And so depending on ticket sales is how much they make.
So yeah, those are the specifics for this band.
In case you were curious.
So because you're not splitting that up, so you're all not taking any money from it.
No, yeah, so you have to work, right?
Oh yeah, all of us.
And we've got bartenders.
We got a winema is like a court, like recorder person.
Whoa, really?
Yeah, you need to ask him about that.
It's holy shit, I can't describe it.
Cool job though, really cool job.
Okay, court reporter, you have bartenders, prop painter, cool.
And then drummer for Mystery Lights.
Yeah, he's the only one of us who's like this.
I mean, he does have some shifts like that.
He'll pick up places, but yeah.
I saw him last night walking around, our wig lady, and I tried to wave and he didn't see me.
No, he's got his head in his clouds that one.
Like just on autopilot.
Laser vision, he's just a little guy just trying to make it, you know, through the night.
Yeah, yeah.
And I was like, you know, I felt like a little kid, he was like, hi.
It's me everywhere.
I'm like, hey, and then no one sees me.
And I'm like, that's OK.
All right.
So, yeah, that's that's good to know, because your band is doing really well.
Like, you know, when you see it on it's like, wow, cool.
They're playing these cool shows and like they're doing all this.
And I really want people to to see like, all right, this a band your size is you're still just putting any money you do make back into the band.
And, you know, is it what's your recording situation like?
Like, do you have a friend you do it with or do you?
We do.
Like we recorded our last record with Ian from Daisy Chain.
He has his own like studio in like Deep Brooklyn.
And it's really cool.
And he's amazing.
And he's in a couple of bands as well that are very good.
He's a drummer, too, in a few.
So many.
Yeah.
But he did our last record and we're doing this record up at Holy Fang, like this farm, like reservation type situation.
And they were a band too, right?
Holy Fang.
I think Oliver might have.
Maybe you're right.
Maybe you're right.
Maybe out of the full history.
I don't know.
You got to ask because I don't know.
I used to play with the band called Holy Fang.
And then I saw like a studio called Holy Fang.
Was Oliver in it?
I don't remember the name.
Yeah, I'm on the spot.
I gotta look it up on the Google.
He had a few bands and right now I know he's doing a project called Elf Army that's with his kids.
What?
Seriously?
I'm dead serious.
Like a family band?
Legit.
Cool.
You don't hear about it anymore, but it's going down in the farms upstate.
Cool.
Yeah.
I love that.
But he's awesome and he's a character and we went and wrote and demoed some stuff out there like a couple months ago.
Just like test how everything was to like see how the vibe was.
If it worked also because we're all so busy that it wasn't the same as writing a record during COVID where we had nothing going on and this could be our full focus.
We needed to like remove ourselves from this situation and like our jobs and our life for whatever, just for a couple of days to be in the middle of nowhere and to finish all of these puzzles that we started.
Yeah.
So yeah, it was cool.
And then we're going back there in a week.
No way.
Oh, cool.
I'm excited.
When are you trying to get that record out into the world?
September.
Do you have a label you're working with?
We're we're we're shooting it around to a couple of people.
And we're going to see like who the right fit is or like, you know, or whatever.
But yeah, we're finishing it up there.
And I'm very excited.
OK.
And you said, wait, September, you want to?
Yeah.
And again, like if we find someone who wants to put it out and like change, it's flexible.
Right.
But I really wanted to have it out before we like left, or at least a couple of singles.
You have a tour in September?
Yeah.
We're putting together some stuff around like the Midwest.
Yeah.
And we're going to do Dead Tooth.
And us are starting on the East Coast and doing some dates.
And then we're probably going to take them with us.
Absolutely should.
I love them.
Yeah.
They're great.
Me too.
Cool.
So that that would be awesome.
Are you trying to put it on a vinyl?
Yeah.
That's like the main.
That's why I'm really looking for someone at this point, because I really just want vinyl.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's a huge expense to print vinyl, to, you know, even if you're getting like an artist, to do the art or whatever, do you do the art yourself for your merch or do you get an artist?
You have a friend.
A friend.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Generally.
Do you throw the money or they just do it for you?
Yeah.
Except like Danny, my friend, she was doing so much free art for us for a while, which was like so sweet.
Yeah.
We do throw money into whatever.
I know some artists and some photographers are like have been in so many bands' lives, like the most helpful, supportive people.
Yeah.
Because you may not think about it, but I saw a post the other day where someone was just talking about the music industry and they're like, people don't realize that the musician, they're the biggest employers of the music industry.
Yeah.
Like, you're employing people constantly.
You're employing artists, you're employing photographers, you're employing engineers.
Some bands are employing live engineers.
You need to mix, even just mixing a song.
Some people charge up to $1,000 per a song to mix.
Yeah.
And recording and it's like, the more friends you make, the more you get these friend deals, which really help the situation.
They save lives, but you want to pay these people what they're worth, but you're not getting paid anything.
And you have to just work these full-time jobs or these freelance gigs to actually pay for all this stuff that you're trying to do.
And then in the end, it goes on Spotify, you get however many plays and you get like three cents back.
That goes into your Toyota fund.
Exactly.
And that Toyota drives you back to the start of the circle.
And you do it all again.
Yeah.
And it can be disheartening.
But you just keep doing it because I was talking to my boyfriend, Ry, the other day, and it's just like music just chooses you.
You literally do not have a choice.
If you're a musician and you're not doing it, you feel this constant nagging inside.
That's like, that's what you need to do.
That's what you need to do.
And it's like a self-care situation.
It's like necessary.
It's necessary.
It is.
And so, you know, you want to do this thing.
Everything costs so much money and you're not getting paid that much money.
And if you are, it's like it's got to go back into the band, back into the band.
And so you do what you have to do to make it work.
But you have to rely on a lot of friends who are also, you know, they're like cutting the price that they charge other people to to help you out.
But like it's it's tough when you want to, you know, my God, pay them what they're worth.
But people are worth, you know, as much as you can make in like three months as a musician.
We're like one song.
Do you know Tyler Bertram?
It sounds familiar, but I'm not sure.
He's a photographer.
He's great.
But like he's been with us like since Jump.
He's just come along to everything we've done, like recording or like shows or whatever.
And like we throw in money like when we can.
But like he's just like there for it out of like love.
And it's like, it's this crazy thing that like I, and I think about it all the time.
I'm like, I owe him so much for his time and his energy.
And like, it almost feels like he's a part of the band at times too.
And that's a beautiful thing.
And I know that it's like a symbiotic relationship or whatever, but like, you know, you still want to give these people what they deserve.
Because they are such talented artists themselves.
And for the money thing too, yeah, whenever I think like, God, this is all so much, or like, I'm tired, or like, you know, whatever, I'm like, I must really love doing this.
Because like, damn, like, when I, at the end of like a long day of painting weaponry, I'm like, I just want to go to practice, you know?
And then I feel better after practice.
So that's how I know it's like, it's worth it.
It's agonizing, it's like figuring out scheduling and money and time can be, it's like, fuck well, I gotta make it work somehow, you know?
Yeah, and that's what most musicians you see that are doing music on all different levels, that's exactly what they're doing, you know?
Because even if they got this like big record deal, they owe that money back.
And a lot of times, most of the time, what's happening is like, they get these record deals, and then that's essentially a 0% interest debt, and your band is in debt until after it's all paid back.
Like, merch is, you probably hear it all the time, like everyone hears it, is that's like what keeps bands afloat, because that's where you make your money, and then you have these venues, some of them are taking merch cuts from the bands, and it's like, bananas, bananas, bananas, it makes, yeah, I get so mad, because I want, it's like, if we walked in and we were like, give me a cut of your bar.
Yeah, what the fuck, what the fuck is that about?
Yeah, like, they didn't pay any money to print any of this merch.
Yeah, what?
And like, the reason the people showed up to the show is because of the band, like I could, and like, the reason people are buying drinks is because of the band being there.
If this band wasn't playing here tonight, your bar wouldn't have made like any money.
Totally.
And it's like, I get it, like, you want to act as a team with these places.
Like, you are a team essentially, but when they're like, yeah, so give us a little bit of that, it's like, what are you talking about?
Like, you give us a little bit of that, but like, uh-uh.
No, no, no, no, no.
Yeah.
But yeah, so you can sell your merch, but yeah, bands are basically going into debt when they have really good deal.
If they have a manager, a booking agent, you know, up to like 30 percent of everything they make is just going to their managers and their booking agents.
And that's a lot of money.
Think about it, like out of every $100 you make, 30 bucks is out the door.
And it's like, you know, maybe those people are, they are getting you these bigger opportunities, but it's at a pretty hefty cost sometimes.
Yeah, the cost of exposure is really high.
I love that.
It's like, you're getting a good opportunity, kid.
And I'm like, but I'm a little hungry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stuff you hungry.
Yeah, get seen.
Well, at least the sandwich shop gave you some sandwiches.
But that was a cover van.
I feel like cover vans get the sandwiches.
Which is like, what are we doing, Mel?
Yeah, I know, I know, I know.
We made, for those of you who don't know, we had a Led Zeppelin cover van.
It was like the greatest week of our lives.
Truly the greatest week.
Yeah.
We had like summer camp together.
Yeah.
And it was rock boot camp.
It was rock and boom.
It was really fun.
That was like the best.
It was.
I think I asked you all the questions.
Oh, no, I have one last question.
All right.
So as you move.
I will.
No, it is going to be.
Oh man.
All right, let's go.
As you go further into the music business, the music industry, as you're stepping into your bands, growing and growing, is there something that is different than what you expected when you set out to play music?
Like the difference between the dream of it all and the actual reality of it all?
Like think of, you know, you back in the day, you're like, I want to do music.
Did you think it'd be anything like it is or what do you think?
That's a good question.
I think that a lot of the prep and organization is obviously not something that I thought about like in the grand scheme.
I think that having to change the way that I've never been a good organizer, I've never been somebody who's been able to plan ahead.
In a real way, I get really excited about something and then I jump at it and I'm like, I want to do this right now.
I think the part of it that's been really hard for me is not, especially getting involved with people who want to help you or booking agents or whoever it is, is now, okay, I have to think about this in terms of a plan and a timeline.
That's been so hard for me.
It's really not how my brain works.
I'm listening to everyone around me and trying to piece it together in that way, but it's not something that I foresaw in my mind.
I was like, oh, I'm just going to make this, put this out, do that whenever, and it'll happen that way, but it's been a learning curve for me in that way, and I want to do it right, so I'm like, oh, I need to learn the best ways.
I want to do it right not for someone else, but just so that maybe this thing that I'm doing can turn into something more serious.
I have to put in the work to figure out how that she's tapping so hard.
It's really cute.
She's like, line dancing under my chair right now, so I apologize.
But yeah, that's been a learning curve, but the thing that has been what I imagined is how rewarding, we've gotten to play a few big rooms that I never thought in my life I would play.
Like the town hall, I never thought, I saw a show there when I was in college and I was like, I'm never gonna be on a stage that big.
So that's been everything I could have dreamed of, but like yeah, the other side of it is like, okay, if I really want to take this seriously, then I have to learn from everyone who's done it around me and like figure out how to like work as a team with all of these people.
Right, yeah, being in a band is like being in a relationship, like a marriage with like four other people.
Yeah.
And you have to be on the same page as so many things, you have to align your schedules, on tour, you have to align your eating, your sleeping, it's so deep, the connection that you make with the people you're playing music with.
And I could totally relate with the organization, because when I was younger, I was like, oh, music's so cool, you just travel around, it's like so free, and then your life is like planned out.
Yes.
And it's like, you're going to be in Savannah this day and Charlotte the next day, and there's no time to sleep, no time to eat.
You're like, whoa, this is the most grueling schedule ever, and it's awesome, you get to see all these places, and it's not like it's not incredible, it's just very planned, it's very strategic.
You know, booking agents are strategic, they might want to hold you off from playing for a little while just to strategize to play a bigger venue later.
Sometimes you're not allowed to play, sometimes you are allowed, it's like very, you know, you have like all these other people that you're all relying on each other to schedule.
And I'm very much the same.
It took me, I think last year I finally got the hang of like doing Google Calendar and being okay at it.
Oh my God.
And before that, I was like writing stuff on like, you know, a notebook and then never know it's top.
Yeah.
I'm like, I'll write something in that and be like, I'm gonna open you in four years.
Yeah.
So I can totally relate to that completely, that you didn't realize like how much it's scheduling, emailing.
I heard a commercial recently that was like, you know, someone complaining about their line of work and they were like, oh man, I should have been a musician.
I'm so sick of all these emails and Zoom calls.
And I was like, I'm on Zoom at least once a week as a musician and I'm constantly answering emails.
It's like an office job on one side.
It's really funny how you picture like musicians and you're like, oh my God, I'm just fly by night.
And I'm just like, I have a different girl every night and I'm in the Eagles.
And you just like picture it a certain way.
It's like, no, no, no, it's like it's a job.
It's a whole ass job.
Yeah.
And it's like a 24-7 job.
Yeah.
You have to think ahead in the future because especially after COVID, venues have been booking out like six months in advance.
Like I used to be able to book a show like a month in advance and be like, cool.
And I think because of COVID, a ton of shows got canceled and then they were rescheduled to when things started to open up again.
And then it turned into like, sorry, we can't book you until like 2027.
And you're like, wait, what?
I have to be thinking about like 2027 now.
Like this crazy.
It's crazy.
The planning is crazy.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I feel that.
I feel the same way.
I'm like, oh my God.
Like even putting together like our own tour sort of like for them, like this is like tomorrow.
September is tomorrow.
Yeah.
No, me too.
That's tomorrow.
I'm the other day.
I was like texting someone about October.
I was like, so what's happening in October?
And I was like, who have I become?
I was like, it's crazy.
Because and in my head, I was like, this is so soon.
Like this is just it is tomorrow.
I was like, and I was like, wow, OK, it's June.
Like I need to chill out.
But I'm like, I can't because you can't.
People are already like asking about September, October, November.
I already know what I'm doing in November.
I don't even know if I'll be alive in October.
Like I'm planning it all out right now.
Yeah.
The deal.
My schedule is like stuffed until like mid November right now.
It's a God.
Yeah.
Mid November.
November.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
Holy shit.
I know.
And anyway, I plan a dinner right now.
I know.
And I know dog show right now.
I know.
All right.
So my final, final, actual final question.
So for anyone listening who's considering jumping into the world of music, what advice would you give them about what it takes to be a rock star?
What would you like to tell the people, you know, if there's someone who's like in high school right now, or young college, or even someone who's in their 30s, who's thinking about starting out, what advice would you give them?
Because I think it's never too late.
What I've learned, and of course, I will ask someone else for advice after I say this, but what I've learned so far is to not get ahead of yourself, don't think about the end product as much as what you want to make first.
Just being sure that the main focus is what you're creating first before you worry about anything else.
Because I think that I've, especially in the business side of things now, I'm like, oh, I want to plan this out.
So I start planning things before I feel really good about the thing that I have and that I've been making.
So I think that the best way to like honestly, to convey honestly to people who are watching you or people who are listening or people who are even going to want to help you is to make sure that you believe in the shit that you're putting out.
So just like spend the time loving what you're making first.
Right.
That's great advice because I feel like when you are really behind what you're making, you resonate this, you're kind of like a tuning fork and it's like this buzz that happens and then people can feel that off of you and then that's how you get, you know, people to, to understand what you're doing and ultimately want to support that.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen to that.
Well, thank you so much for being my first guest.
It was amazing and Puka did amazing.
Thanks.
Hopefully it's like just up from here.
Yeah.
That's all it can be.
Puka killed it.
Thank you so much for tuning in to the first episode of What It Takes To Be A Rockstar.
I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.
Tune in next week where I will be talking to Seth from Ghost Run Orchestra, which is a band that ranges between eight and 12 people.
And I talked to Seth about what it takes to bring a band of that size on the road.
So it's super interesting with logistics and financials, how to tour with a big group like that.
So make sure to tune in.
And I also have a video coming with that episode as well.
So you'll be able to see our faces and listen in that way if you prefer.
All right.
Thank you.
Tune in next time.
